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+
Zune
I just sent this letter to Microsoft. It was a very difficult thing to do:
Sunday November 11, 2006
Hey Paul, we are going to back out of the Zune.net promo that is supposed to launch [deleted date].
I have been losing sleep over it and decided this is just not going to be right for Rocketboom. While I expect this will be a big traffic loss for us, at heart, I really love Apple and will stick by them in this competition. I also remembered from last year that Microsoft was the first company to really make me feel as though I was being taken advantage of personally.
We are not in this to side with a player. In fact, I hope that people who do enjoy the Zune will enjoy watching Rocketboom on their Zune players. This can happen however without the need to cross promote each other.
Also, with regards to the logo agreement, just by having the Zune logo on our page would mean we would not be able to make disparaging comments about Microsoft and that's just not a reasonable restriction for Rocketboom.
Best of luck,
Drew
Posted to rocketboom by Drew on
November 12, 2006
11:47 AM
Comments:
+ M Freitas
I disagree with the comment about having a company logo on your pages prevents you of commenting on that company's performance... I have a Microsoft MVP logo on my pages but I can be critical of their products and services - and have been.
This is independence.
Posted: November 12, 2006 4:22 PM
+ Staci Kramer
Drew --
Can you please clarify regarding the logo? Is there an expressed statement that users of the logo cannot be derogatory of Microsoft or do you believe it is implicit?
Posted: November 12, 2006 5:09 PM
+ crescentdave
You post: "I also remembered from last year that Microsoft was the first company to really make me feel as though I was being taken advantage of personally."
Care to provide details? Or is it just a "I love Apple" kinda post?
I am curious.
Posted: November 12, 2006 5:56 PM
+ cyanbane
Heaven forbid Apple start having some real competition in the personal mp3 player/entertainment device market. I don't know how us consumers will deal with companies competing for our business...
The whole logo/no disparaging comments thing is odd. I won't pretend to know the terms of such an arrangement, but that sounds pretty wild if you really feel you can't criticize something because you have their logo shown.
I would figure you would want to get in on any angle available. /shrug
Posted: November 12, 2006 7:25 PM
+ peeved
Zzzzzz.... the MS vs Apple bit is SO 1990s. What is posting this letter supposed to prove? That you are somehow more honest and virtuous because you go against the evil empire?
If you are "losing sleep" over something like this, then you need to get a big ole dose of what the Real World is... For Chrissakes, people are dying in war, famine, and genocide all over the place and a frackin' LOGO keeps you up at night? I pity you.
Posted: November 12, 2006 7:44 PM
+ drew
Re, logo clarification, in order to do the cross promotion I would have been required to have their logo on my site.
However, the logo was sent with a use contract that stated as one of the clauses:
"You may not display the Logo(s) on any site that disparages Microsoft or its products or services, infringes any Microsoft intellectual property or other rights, or violates any state, federal or international law."
This kind of requirement is really sad and just taints the whole experience.
On the other hand, Apple has taken it upon themselves to help lift us up in support of freedom and I feel in many ways indebted. Its only natural then that I would back my ally in a time when a potential killer is on the loose.
Posted: November 12, 2006 8:00 PM
+ jason
rocketboom isn't what it used to be. I WON'T be losing any sleep over this, you act like microsoft even cares. business is business if you knew what you were doing you would put both logos on your site.
Posted: November 12, 2006 8:39 PM
+ yatta
cresentdave: I'm not sure if Andrew wants to share what Microsoft said to he and Amanda in their talks, but I can vouch for him that their approach was the kind of insult that you don't soon forget. That alone would be reason enough to tell them to fuck off.
Nice to see Andrew do it rather politely.
Posted: November 12, 2006 9:25 PM
+ yattayatta
yatta: "nicely" would be to do it in private instead of insulting them in public.
and if microsoft was mean in the past, then why start the negotiations to begin with? it sounds like he's backing out on a agreed deal.
i doubt he'll have to worry about backing out of another given the handling of this situation.
Posted: November 12, 2006 9:32 PM
+ Joe
You backed out of a deal with Microsoft over what?
I always get a kick out of this kind of stuff,
if needed Apple will sue Bloggers or fan sites, it will sue individual fans, it will steal ideas from small developers instead of buying their companies and at least making these small company founders some money.
Then you get these guys who feel soo devoted to Apple?
Talk about misplaced loyalty, it you want to feel strongly about something, try Amnesty International, or about human rites in general.
Forget about your feelings for a multibillion dollar multinational like Apple.
Take the Money from Microsoft, or Oracle,
or anybody who feels your little show is worth investing in.
Posted: November 12, 2006 10:16 PM
+ Shawn Christopher
Drew,
Can you change the letter to say "Paul, we really want to promote Apple and not Microsoft".
"We're really not into this to side with a player" - We just don't want your player right?
I'm not even going to buy a Zune, but heck after Amanda and now this, Drew, you my friend are clueless. It's money.
Posted: November 12, 2006 10:36 PM
+ Jason
Nice to see you're showing potential partners respect by airing public comments about shit you don't like about their contracts that you decline.
Posted: November 12, 2006 10:44 PM
+ David
You commentors are so funny. Zune does not work with a MAC. If you buy a Zune, you need to buy a PC. Doh! Microsoft is very careful about burying that in thier online documentation.
Posted: November 12, 2006 10:48 PM
+ foo
Hi. Sunday November 11 ... hmm. I thought that was 12.
Posted: November 12, 2006 10:48 PM
+ Drew
Shawn and Joe, you are both saying take the money? it's all about money?
Not only would I be in breach of the contract by the mere act of placing the logo on our site, I think the biggest problems in the world are probably created because people put money over matter.
Its not at all about the money.
The only reason why I was losing sleep was due to nostalgia with Apple when it comes the long history of these two companies' competitive behavior.
Jason, 'just think of it as a football game where you become a fan of a team.
If it were not for Apple, Microsoft might have a near monopoly on the operating systems we use.
I still appreciate what Microsoft does in many ways, but I the Zune is by far inferior to the iPod. And I would like to remain free to say that.
I also think it is an issue that should be raised.
Shawn, you work at Microsoft and you are free to say that you are not going to buy a Zune. Could Microsoft pay you to not to say that?
I'll bet you couldn't get Robert Scoble to sign a contract like that.
Posted: November 12, 2006 11:06 PM
+ Jason
Drew, that's a cop out. Why did you post this information publicly? What is the motivation for this post except to stick it to someone who wanted to partner with you, but you chose the opposite football team? If I were a potential future partner or advertiser seeing you do this, I would never approach you. This comes off as a stunt, not you being ethical or giving full disclosure.
Posted: November 12, 2006 11:16 PM
+ Drew
Jason, don't you understand the implications!??
If Microsoft is going to be involved with content, it will only be content that will be biased?
People should know this - it is very dangerous to keep it a secret.
Posted: November 12, 2006 11:31 PM
+ yattayatta
drew, do YOU not understand the implicatons? you revealed the private plans of a Fortune 50 company in public!
if you want to change the world, you're gonna have to do it from a bigger pulpit than dembot.com. why not test your hypothesis on rocketboom itself?
take the money, point out the logo, and say that you think the zune sucks and that were it not for apple, a company you love, microsoft would have a monopoly on operating systems.
if microsoft files a complaint, they come off as pricks. when they don't, you've set policy for everyone. and, in the process, you've probably make an interesting and popular episode of rocketboom for a change.
worried about legal costs? then 1) don't make stupid posts like the one above because frankly it's probably more of a risk than the other option and 2) call up your buddy cory and get him to hook you up with the EFF to defend you.
if microsoft is attemping to control the internet (ha!) using using the same exact language that accompanies use of the apple logos and graphics (see the apple website), then i'm sure they'll jump at it the opportunity to right this horrible wrong.
Posted: November 13, 2006 12:32 AM
+ Anonymous
Whoa I didn't expect to see business details like this in public. Very dangerous precedent to set...
It's okay for things to just disappear, cause from my point of view it never happened.
Posted: November 13, 2006 12:55 AM
+ M Freitas
Oh... Thanks for the update on the licence terms... Now I see what you mean.
Posted: November 13, 2006 1:02 AM
+ yattayatta
here's a quote from Apple's corporate guidelines:
4. Disparaging Manner: You may not use an Apple trademark or any other Apple-owned graphic symbol, logo, or icon in a disparaging manner.
it's standard business stuff, drew. take a business class -- while you still have one.
Posted: November 13, 2006 2:01 AM
+ Pascal
Great to see that someone has the balls to dismiss a (possible) deal just because he feels it is the right thing to do. Keep it up, Drew!
Posted: November 13, 2006 3:39 AM
+ Diego
I can't believe these Microsoft fanboys come out and defend something like this. If MS can't handle any heat they may get from negative reports on their Zune, then they are basically saying they don't have a strong product. If they did they wouldn't have to worry about it.
Not only are MS paying the Music Mafia their extortion demands they are also showing weakness by not believing in their own product to let it stand on its own without making deals if people are only positive about it.
The Zune really is f***ed.
http://blog.wired.com/cultofmac/2006/10/microsofts_zune.html
Posted: November 13, 2006 4:05 AM
+ Drew
Eh, hello! There is a BIG difference between disparaging a logo, and disparaging a company who has a logo on your page.
Posted: November 13, 2006 8:05 AM
+ Brainy
aw, pookie, they're picking on you.
but don't worry, i have a solution:
Dearest Paul of Microsoft,
As much as it aches me to have to deal with a substantially dollared deal where I'm flooded with a trunk load of traffic to my website from which I can generate more revenue from ad sales, I will accept the Microsoft offer (site unseen) on my little crack, but oh so charming, website http://collegewit.com. Note that I haven't actually updated it in about a month or so (due to school obligations and late night dancing sessions in the rain), but I do hereby solemnly swear to update it from now on. In fact I've already included love notes to Bill Gates and will continue to do so. In fact, every day will be a verbal online make-out session with Microsoft on College Wit! (side note: I think I might even be the love child of Mr. Gates and Oprah [ http://collegewit.com/index.php?title=sunburns_aamp_college_graduation_oh_shit&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1 ] so perhaps this ought to be taken into consideration as well).
Also, to show good business faith and to sweeten up the deal, I'm even willing to pay Microsoft $100 for the cross promotion. Okay, I’ll save up my movie money and make it $200. . . if you really want I can “borrow” money from my little brother’s piggie bank and make it $250. . .
So what do you think?
-Yours Truly,
Brainy of CollegeWit.com
P.S.: I also make a mean coffee, if that means anything to you.
Posted: November 13, 2006 10:10 AM
+ yattayatta
As defined in Black's Law Dictionary (7th ed. 1999), disparagement is "A false and injurious statement that discredits or detracts from the reputation of another's property, product, or business."
Stop reading the internet and call a lawyer, Drew. Have him explain Disparagement, Slander, Libel and Defamation to you. Since you have a media show, these are basic concepts you need to be familiar with.
Posted: November 13, 2006 10:28 AM
+ muse
These MS fanboys are douche bags, Drew. You didn't post any business plans, you posted your reply. You are allowed to do that. It's great to see someone who isn't willing to sell their soul to MS. Your integrity is worth more than anything they have to offer. They'd probably make you agree to some EULA saying you can only update your site once, and after that you'd have to buy a whole new copy of Windows Vista (nevermind the fact you're not even using that operating system on the machine from which you post.)
Posted: November 13, 2006 11:21 AM
+ steve
Apple has sued when it thought its intellectual property had been stolen. While that may not be a popular (or successful) thing to have done, it doesn't prevent any of us from talking negatively about them. And the web is certainly full of anti-Apple stuff.
They only people being restricted are people who voluntarily agree to be (employees and contractors).
Quoting a law dictionary is horribly naive. The real system is that a large company can bury you in litigation for alleged disparagement. And use that threat to intimidate. It probably won't happen but it IS scary. The difference in the Apple language and MS language IS significant. The Apple language doesn't put the content of your site into play.
And I know of no company as good at manipulating the legal system as MS.
Now tomorrow, would the MS fanbois please all go out and buy their Zunes and then STFU. Unlike Windows, no one is forced to use an ipod...
Posted: November 13, 2006 12:13 PM
+ drew olanoff
I am personally a PC guy and it is known i'm not a fan of mac. Having said that, you sticking by your feelings and not wanting to take a sponsorship because it didn't feel right is admirable. I've learned never to compromise my feelings for anyone or anything.
Posted: November 13, 2006 1:03 PM
+ conflicted
http://www.apple.com/about/webbadges/badges2.html
"You may not use... any Apple trademark on a Web page which contains subject matter which Apple may deem, at its sole discretion, in poor taste or to be disparaging to Apple or its products or services."
Posted: November 13, 2006 4:44 PM
+ Jimmy CraicHead
Dave, A Zune will play on an Intel Mac that has XP loaded on it. Not enough for me to buy one, especially after hearing TWIT today!
Posted: November 13, 2006 5:45 PM
+ funvin
“You may not use the Badge or any Apple trademark on a Web page which contains subject matter which Apple may deem, at its sole discretion, in poor taste or to be disparaging to Apple or its products or services.”
Hmm, maybe disparaging means something different when used in context of Apple.
Hope you get good sleep now.
Posted: November 13, 2006 7:13 PM
+ linuxiac
Gee, Drew, folks commenting, who have never done anything above asking "Do you want fries with that?", are suddenly experts on Corporate ethics, and Law?
The big bullies use lawyers as cannon fodder in their war to grab customer base.
I run BSD and Linux and Macs. They all run upto 50X faster and are virus free, since 1984. I still play my RIO (ca 2000).
1984 is the year I switched my home built PCs and adopted to Apple, to have the safe and stable stuff, and to recycle the PCs that began being dumped.
I am only one, in a sea of hundreds of millions, who have switched to the 'Nix OSes. And, who recycle PCs into the hands of Charities, Churches, Schools, and Children. (Microsoft, BSA, et. al. vs. Salvation Army brought it all into focus).
We are only in agreement with Microsoft about their running Linux on all their website servers, and their routers, and firewalls, and Redmond Campus Labs, and those 45,000 MS.com, Hotmail.com, and MSN.com servers... for FREE!
Microsoft has been using Open Source resources since at least 1990 in all products. (Court cases and Settlements, paying the Regents of the developer colleges, ca 2005, Groklaw).
If MS would actually embrace the concept, market share would grow, but, instead, MS Marketing forces the shrinkage of their abused user base on a worldwide scale.
Everyone should run what Microsoft actually uses, Linux!
http://pclinuxos.com includes 1900 amazing games and applications in the LiveCDrom!
Boots in CDrom, Runs in RAM disc! Warning: Ages 4 and up. Contains concepts, such as FREE choice, FREEdom, and is probably not comprehensible to most Windoze Users.
System Requirements: 400 Mhz X86 processor with 128Mb RAM, 2X CDrom drive, keyboard, mouse.
No Hard Drive required to run, 6Gb suggested for install to obtain the 5500 FREE games, applications, from servers.
Posted: November 14, 2006 8:33 AM
+ linuxiac
Gee, Drew, folks commenting, who have never done anything above asking "Do you want fries with that?", are suddenly experts on Corporate ethics, and Law?
The big bullies use lawyers as cannon fodder in their war to grab customer base.
I run BSD and Linux and Macs. They all run upto 50X faster and are virus free, since 1984. I still play my RIO (ca 2000).
1984 is the year I switched my home built PCs and adopted to Apple, to have the safe and stable stuff, and to recycle the PCs that began being dumped.
I am only one, in a sea of hundreds of millions, who have switched to the 'Nix OSes. And, who recycle PCs into the hands of Charities, Churches, Schools, and Children. (Microsoft, BSA, et. al. vs. Salvation Army brought it all into focus).
We are only in agreement with Microsoft about their running Linux on all their website servers, and their routers, and firewalls, and Redmond Campus Labs, and those 45,000 MS.com, Hotmail.com, and MSN.com servers... for FREE!
Microsoft has been using Open Source resources since at least 1990 in all products. (Court cases and Settlements, paying the Regents of the developer colleges, ca 2005, Groklaw).
If MS would actually embrace the concept, market share would grow, but, instead, MS Marketing forces the shrinkage of their abused user base on a worldwide scale.
Everyone should run what Microsoft actually uses, Linux!
http://pclinuxos.com includes 1900 amazing games and applications in the LiveCDrom!
Boots in CDrom, Runs in RAM disc! Warning: Ages 4 and up. Contains concepts, such as FREE choice, FREEdom, and is probably not comprehensible to most Windoze Users.
System Requirements: 400 Mhz X86 processor with 128Mb RAM, 2X CDrom drive, keyboard, mouse.
No Hard Drive required to run, 6Gb suggested for install to obtain the 5500 FREE games, applications, from servers.
Posted: November 14, 2006 8:37 AM
+ Anonymous
Good job Drew. I think it is a really good idea to allow business deals to live and breath in the open. Corporations need more checks to keep the balance. The Zune team was obviously up to something. So if they stink then everyone should know that they stink. Then, maybe, they would keep showered.
Posted: November 15, 2006 1:27 AM
+ Alex G
I can't help but laugh at comments left by linuxiac. What a child.
In any case, I find this post to be very poor business practice. Keep your dirty laundry to yourself.
Boo, boo! They insulted you? What are you, 10? It's called business. You don't like how they treating you, move on. They are working for the best of their own company, not yours.
Any real competition to iPod is a welcomed one. If anything it will only improve your beloved iPod so you can buy it for the 6th, 7th and 8th time just so it'll get scratched by lint in your pockets.
Posted: November 15, 2006 2:22 PM
+ Jay
@Alex G:
What are you? The old codger who doesn't get it? Business doesn't have to be cold and bitter. Where I come from, if you do bad business deals, your business dies. Sure, he could have taken the deal, but then he, and his employees, would be the ones to live with it. He decided not to, simple. Also, calling people juvenile does nothing to prove your case as well.
I for one applaud Drew for putting his conscience first. It's time business had some form of such. Screwing your customers and business partners isn't good business, and I'm glad he recognized that would ultimately happen. Too bad MS doesn't see it that way.
Posted: November 16, 2006 2:23 AM
+ Jon T
Microsoft has done so many deals that stitch up and have damaged their partners, customers and competition, that there must be more people ready to hit back at them given the opportunity than there are people on the planet.
Anyone defending Microsoft is sad, sad, sad.
Posted: November 18, 2006 7:19 AM
+ Tom Brown
Hi, just leaving a note to say I think you're in the right for standing up for something you believe in (essentially freedom of the press) rather than generating more traffic for your site.
Your experience just goes to show how easy it is for MS to pull the wool over the public's eyes.
Tom Brown, London
Posted: January 31, 2007 7:57 PM
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